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Neelam Raina: Hello and welcome to Middlesex University Research podcast.

My name is Neelam Raina and I am the Director of Research at Middlesex University. At Middlesex University, we do many different types of research that has widespread impact on our students, on our academics, and the wider community outside. The ambition of our research is to transform lives, and we do that in many different ways.

These podcasts are recordings done at Middlesex University by colleagues here who will talk about their research, their ideas, why do we do research, how does it matter, and all kinds of issues in-between. So welcome to Middlesex University research podcast. Thank you for joining us.

Hello and welcome to Middlesex University podcasts. In this series, we are going to talk about research at Middlesex and research for early career researchers. I have Joanna here, as well as Nico. They will introduce themselves in a minute.

Today we are talking about an amazing new initiative they have started between them that helps support researchers who are based at Middlesex University in London.

So, hello and welcome. Hi Nico, do you want to introduce yourself?

Nico Pizzolato: Thank you for having us. My name is Nico Pizzolato. I'm an Associate Professor in Global Liberal Studies at Middlesex University and, currently the Director of Postgraduate Research Studies at this university. I can tell you a bit more about myself, but first I would like Jo to.

Joanna Masangkay: Hi. My name is Joanna Masangkay. I recently submitted my doctorate, and I am currently a research fellow at the Centre of Environment and Economic Development Research.

Neelam Raina: Thank you. So the CEEDR research centre that Joanna is talking about is a research centre that is funded by the ESRC under the CUSP project, which is one of their projects that we are undertaking at the moment.

There's a lot of research that is undertaken at CEEDR. They are based at Middlesex University and Joanna is a fellow. So, I am going to jump straight in. Tell me about the doctoral café. Tell me what it is called and tell me why you are doing it. How does it work? I want to know everything.

Joanna Masangkay: Everything. Oh wow. We'll take you to when we started and how we started it. Basically, Nico and I were walking along Sunny Hill Park during the pandemic, and we were exchanging views about how solitary it feels, like the research journeys, and were thinking about all the other doctoral students going through this, and not being able to be on campus, not being able to see their supervisors face to face or in person. So from there, the idea of doctoral journeys was born, and Nico aptly titled it as our first series Directions and Detours.

Nico Pizzolato: Actually, in our first year it was called Happy Hour at the Doctoral Café. Initially it was to create a sort of engagement online, because obviously we couldn't meet in person.

So that was an initial, very simple idea and from then we built on it with a number of changes to the format over time. One of these is that at a certain point every year we introduced a title for the series for the other year. The first one was, Direction and the Tools. Another one was Vision and Decision. And the current one is…

Joanna Masangkay: Doers and Dreamers.

Neelam Raina: Brilliant. That sounds amazing. 

Nico Pizzolato: The title this year gives inspiration to the sorts of conversations we have during different sessions, and we often bring the conversation back to this very generic title. It is also meant to inspire people to approach research in a positive way.

Neelam Raina: So, let's get the detail in that case, for our listeners who may not be based at Middlesex University - or even at a university. Who are the people you are bringing into these cafés? Are there students? How many students do we have? What is the interest and what is this space aiming to create? What is the purpose of the space that you have created?

Joanna Masangkay: As I mentioned previously, it started from that feeling of isolation we often experience during our research journey - particularly the usually quite long doctoral journeys. The idea was to create connections, create a space for the usual siloed knowledge spaces, besides the knowledge development side of the purpose for this research café. It's also about encouraging collaborations and appreciating each other's knowledge sets, how we can collaborate in future research to create those wider spaces, push knowledge boundaries, and, of course, make an impact.

It is really just to create that community for an otherwise seemingly solitary type of journey.

Neelam Raina: The PhD pursuit is quite a solitary and isolating journey on its own - even without COVID - as you compel yourself to continue that journey to an end point of a Viva and a degree at the end of it. That journey of you being the only expert of that specific thing is isolating enough but having solidarity with those who are facing similar challenges, perhaps similar hurdles, makes a difference.

There's also something about visions and dreams as well - what do you want to do after you finish a PhD (apart from get a “job”), what is it that you want to change, shift and do?

So Nico, my question to you in that case is, as the Director of Postgraduate Research, could you tell me more about how many students we have? What kind of students we have, how many of them go through this journey? How difficult is the journey?

Nico Pizzolato: We have about five hundred students. Five hundred postgraduate research students at Middlesex.

One thing about Middlesex is that we don't have only the traditional PhD, but also a range of programmes, including professional doctorates, Masters by Research and Doctorates by Public Works. So that's one more element of the isolation we're talking about because there are also fragmentational differences across different programmes, so there's hardly a chance for students to meet altogether.

As Jo said, the initial idea of this café was one of engagement, community, and connection. Also, over time, we found that the café was serving other functions as well. A lot of conversations were about wellbeing during the student journey, which is something that nowadays, in the area of postgraduate research, gets a lot of attention. It's an area that is recognised to be central to the doctoral journey because it's a difficult journey, it's very long, and there isn't that support of usually having a class around you. Some PhD students have that (I work in a lab and have no lab mates), but that's not the case for everyone. So wellbeing became an important part of it.

The other thing I recognise in my role as director is that the kind of feedback we were receiving during the café from students was much more spontaneous, authentic, and meaningful than any other form of feedback I receive in terms of surveys or participation to boards of studies. So for me, it was really helpful because I was getting a lot of ideas from the conversations at the café that I would then try to implement in my role. It was almost like having a continual focal group.

So the café continues to be open. We have one every month and it continues to be attended by students from all the different research degrees that we have.

Neelam Raina: Sounds like a rich place to be. Can you tell me a little bit more about wellbeing? Because wellbeing was not a word that was present when I was doing my PhD a hundred thousand years ago.

It was just about getting on with it, and that phrase - ‘get on with it’ - is really the wrong language for wellbeing. It’s probably the best way to be unsupportive and exclusionary in many ways. So, what are the wellbeing conversations that you find useful for yourself and that you think support the students?

Nico Pizzolato: There is an interesting irony when we talk about wellbeing in postgraduate research, because anything in postgraduate research is made up of classes that are almost voluntarily attended. So, whenever you label a class as a ‘wellbeing class’, hardly anybody shows up - that's the irony.

However, because it’s a café we talk about anything, and these conversations emerge quite spontaneously without forcing it on them. For instance, I remember a conversation that started about imposter syndrome. We had a whole session that ended up only discussing that topic, exploring its different facets, in different details.

Anxiety is something that comes up very often - anxiety about milestones, anxiety about a relationship with a supervisor, anxiety about what you will do after your doctorate. So I think it’s a way for students to realise that this is a shared feeling. It's not only something that you as an individual feel because something is missing, but you know it's something shared.

Joanna Masangkay: Yes. The café was really good for almost harnessing that motivation, that internal motivation that is within anyone that embarks on a PhD journey. It is trying to help each other along and the idea of knowing that there are other people who are in the same boat. There are other people who are experiencing things like this, this massive imposter syndrome. There is this idea that we are supposed to be, or are seen as, experts in our fields - or we are becoming experts in our fields - which creates quite a lot of pressure and anxiety on a lot of students and even for us as early career researchers. The café was about bringing a group together, considering we do have a wide variety of students participating, we have a lot of parents or single parents embarking on the journey as well. So, it’s about finding ways to balance all these different tensions - not just within the PhD programme, but outside of the PhD programmes as well.

It's that acknowledgement and realisation that there are these other existing tensions that we have to try and battle through. There was one session where we were discussing the ‘valley of shit’ that we go through for the doctorate. It’s true - there are times where you feel really low, whether it's towards the beginning, in the middle or at the end - whichever stage it is. Sometimes you tend to be filled with dread and anxiety, not really knowing when the end is coming, whether there is going to be an end, whether you’re going to get results for the lab work you've been working on, or the fieldwork that you've been doing may or may not necessarily contribute to what you are trying to build – and that uncertainty in itself can be anxiety inducing.

Neelam Raina: That's amazing. So am I right in understanding that you are using the concept of empathy, which exists in all of us as humans, and kind of harnessing that to create an open space where people feel comfortable enough to be vulnerable about their anxieties, about their questions, about their fears - perhaps of what happens next or what's happening right now? And also using the same space for the isolation and the siloed approaches to knowledge creation that the PhD journey brings. In that sense, empathy becomes a horizontal connector between students, helping them feel less alone. Can you tell me about the feedback that Nico mentioned?

You got some interesting, spontaneous feedback from these sessions. I have been to wellbeing sessions where I was perhaps the only one sitting there, and if you run surveys, you really have to nudge people into answering them - students can be notoriously hard to get answers from on something that is voluntary.

Can you tell me how your feedback is working? Can you give an example of a good piece of feedback that made you sit back and say, huh, this is interesting?

Joanna Masangkay: Yes. What we have tried to create and what we have created, it feels for me at least, is a safe space.

It’s an informal space where people tend to be open. We try to get into topics not necessarily related to their own particular knowledge sets, but find a common thread for people to discuss. For example, one of the sessions we looked at was positionality - the idea of positionality and really trying to dig deep into why is it us that is doing this particular research? What is the kind of impact we have on the research itself? To what extent do we hold ourselves accountable for our research? Talking about this topic allows people to really think through why they even embarked on the PhD journey.

For some people, they have deep seated personal issues they're trying to address. One of our researchers, for example, is driven by the idea of trying to address the issues of exclusions for Black Caribbean school boys. That's Phillipa's research – she started last year – and it’s drawn from her personal experience. A lot of these discussions can be quite emotional. You'll find that a lot of our PhD students are driven by the things that they've experienced, the things that they've seen, and this realisation really started from discussing the idea of putting our positionality into our research.

It's not like a survey question, it's not a tick-box question, but it does open up space or a platform for people to discuss these issues, which sometimes they don't necessarily think about. It's not just something they're going to write for their thesis; it also creates connections between the different researchers that want to drive particular impact out of their own personal experiences as well.

Neelam Raina: There is something very deeply pedagogical in that space.

Nico Pizzolato: Yes. Well, in terms of pedagogy, I think over time by trial and error, we developed a certain format, and I think that's what I personally find fulfilling about the café that we, over time, managed to create the way we want to run it. 

One thing that Jo implied, is that everybody brings their own persona to the café, not only as a researcher, but as who they are, and we try to do that as well. One thing we do is a check-in and a checkout. Every café starts with a check-in, in which everybody has a chance to do something, every single person.

We usually start with something, not only what are you researching about, but how is it going, what has happened today that made you smile, or what was remarkable about your journey, your day, things like this. This is for everybody, it's not focused only on the students, but all of us together.

So, for instance, I'm the first one to share something I'm worried about today, and if I do it, then other people feel entitled to do the same or otherwise they wouldn't do it. This check in actually takes quite a long time because sometimes we have 20 to 30 participants, but it's so important and people find out so much about other people, other participants, about who they are. Similarly, we finish with a checkout which is briefer. We close the session in a more empathetic way. So that's a bit of the format. The other bit of the format is that we often have guests coming to speak about certain things.

I don’t know if you remember Jo, at the very beginning, we had the research interviews in which we invited members of staff, and everybody was interviewed by that member of staff about their own research journey. Last time we had former researchers, former alumni who had published a book in whatever field, whether academic or non-academic, and they talked about that. We always bring something new to the café, which sparks the conversation.

Neelam Raina: It feels like a home setting. So if I were to ask you, when is the next café, how can I turn up? Could you tell me more? For those who are at Middlesex University and are listening?

Joanna Masangkay: Well, we have them once a month on the first Thursday of the month, set at 3:00 PM and there is a link, it's usually the same link, the same Zoom channel, that we make use of every month. It's hybrid. When did we start the hybrid sessions?

Nico Pizzolato: Maybe a year ago.

Joanna Masangkay: A year ago. It’s in room WG36A, right next to the PhD room in the Williams building. The hybrid session has become quite like a real café. We usually have snacks.

Nico Pizzolato: People bring their coffee or tea and then they continue to talk even after the sessions, and they stay talking.  

Neelam Raina: It sounds like a proper environment to have a conversation. Where you feel that you belong.

Joanna Masangkay: Oh, for sure. As I mentioned before, it is a safe space for people to open up. It's not forced on people to open up, it's up to them to share and to talk. But I wanted to go back to what Nico said. We did have guest speakers. At one point we had Phil James as well. We've had some colleagues from outside of the university as well talk about their research journeys.

Nico Pizzolato: We had a friend of Jo's - a former Manchester United football player who later completed a doctorate – come and talk about his own journey. So I think we have fun. It's playful and reflective, and we try to strike a balance between the two.

Neelam Raina: I think this is a key aspect of how we support our research students. It's a key aspect of maybe changing the narrative of isolation – the idea that you have to sit in a little hut on top of a mountain and finish your PhD all by yourself. That narrative has to shift, and I think you're doing an amazing job of doing it.

And how can we contact you or the café if you're interested in being a guest, or if you want to listen in more, or are a student?

Nico Pizzolato: You can find me on the Middlesex University corporate website - my name is Nico Pizzolato. It is quite hard to spell, but I’m sure you will find me. And Neelam, you're invited to join us for the next café next Thursday,  

Neelam Raina: I would love to. Can I bring biscuits? I shall come with my biscuits. Next first Thursday of next month, you will see me - I shall come by. It’s been a pleasure to hear about this because, all those years ago when I was doing a PhD, we had a PhD room in which there were 12 of us at Leicester.

Some of us were so close to our Viva that the rest of us felt very relieved to know ours was still far away. The anxiety that the Viva was causing to somebody we shared a PhD room with was visible in their face, in their body language. And then, when you have new PhD students joining in the same room, there's a physicality of that space that creates this for us.

Things have changed; things have moved on. Space is little, time is little, and then there was COVID. This hybrid space sounds like the perfect friendly atmosphere to be in. I thank you both for this amazing intervention - this amazing café. And for those of you who are listening, who are Middlesex University students, you will find Nico or Joanna on campus. Come along to the café, and I might see you there. Thank you very much for joining us for this podcast.

This is a series of podcasts you've been listening to from Middlesex University, exploring the research we do here. You can find us on whichever platform you get your podcast from, and you can also find us on the research pages of Middlesex University, which is www.mdx.ac.uk/research.

All of our podcast episodes will be posted here for you to access for free. Thank you very much for joining us.  

Goodbye.